Hidden Truths About BEAD Every Co-op Should Know with REC Broadband Pioneer Darren Farnan

Jase Wilson: Folks in the community, it's a real honor to get to hang out again with Darren Farnan, who's a broadband pioneer and all-around cool dude. Yeah, Darren Farnan, COO of United Fiber. And just absolutely amazing human that's done a lot of good, that, you're the reason why I can get fiber to the farm in Northwest Missouri, even though I can't get the fiber to my house here in the Bay Area of California where there's supposedly a bunch of technology happening. Awesome work so far. Folks in the community that haven't had a chance to check out Darren and his background, we did an AMA, what was it, last year? 

Darren Farnan: That's right.

Jase: Maybe a year ago? 

Darren: It's close.

Jase: Wow. Yeah. We did an AMA with Darren last year in The Broadway Community. And if you haven't seen it yet, you should definitely check it out. Ben, I think you're on this thing. Is there any way that you can drop the link to Darren's AMA for folks if they don't have a link already? I'm gonna pretend like I hear Ben saying, "Yes," and that that's being done. Let me see. Go into the chat. Oh, sweet.

Jase: So, folks on the call, if you have questions along the way, please drop them into that sidebar. And if this is definitely, if anything like an opportunity to get some knowledge from Darren, think of it as an extension to his AMA. He's been in this for untold numbers of years now and has pioneered one of the coolest broadband providers inside of a rural electric cooperative in the nation, and we'll get into that as part of this talk. But, Darren, it's a real honor to get to hang out with you again, man. And folks that had a chance, go and look at Darren's work. Otherwise, let's go ahead and hop into it. And then what we we're trying to do is, we're trying to wrap it up around the 30-minute mark. And if folks have questions and stick around, to walk through the questions. If not, we will just all go our separate ways and wish each other a happy Friday. Okay.

Jase: But, one quick note about this talk, a caveat is that this is specifically about cooperatives that have spent decades building up some type of service delivery business into homes. So, rural electric cooperatives, telephone cooperatives, and even to some extent more recently, communications district, they have a cooperative model. These are things that are specific to you. They aren't necessarily specific to other types of potential applicants of the BEAD Program. Everybody, of course, is welcome to join. And then there are pieces of this that involve like partnering with mom-and-pop ISPs or even REC ISPs to do a partnership model. But if you're here and just wanna check things out, awesome. But, just wanna be respectful of your time that, there could be potentially less interesting to you if you're not a cooperative. Yeah. Stick around, hang out, ask questions, lean in, have a good time, okay? So Darren, I'm gonna jump up with some slides, if that's cool with you, and then we'll walk folks through. Can you see this? Does this work? 

Darren: That looks good.

Jase: Sweet. Okay. Yeah. So, these are about the hidden truths, specific to co-ops. And of course, Darren... Darren is freaking awesome. You gotta get to know Darren. This is one interesting way to think about, Darren, what you've done over the last many moons. There's a universe of folks that provide internet services, and then there's a subset of those folks that are rural electric cooperatives that also have gotten into providing internet service to members. And one way already that we think about looking at those is, how many subscribers you have for internet services relative to how many electric members do you serve in the case of REC? You could do the same type of exercise with telcos. We haven't done it, but it probably would be very interesting. But there's something very unique about what you've done at United Fiber. You've actually grown well outside of your electric member footprint. Can you talk a little bit about the... Give us the latest stats in terms of number of subscribers, number of members, how far you've gone outside of your area, just as a bit of context before we jump into BEAD.

Darren: Sure. Yeah. Yeah, Jase, you're right. A lot of these companies that you see here have been in this business for quite some time. And most of these businesses here, most of the cooperatives that you're looking at here, Co-Mo, OzarksGo, OEC, others, are typically bigger co-ops. There's just a handful of co-ops that have managed to get over 30,000 subscribers. We're fortunate enough to be at... Just went over 34,000 subscribers. I don't have the final numbers until we get the month-end done here, but we're...

Jase: Congratulations.

Darren: We just went over 34,000. So we're...

Jase: Congrats.

Darren: Thrilled about that. And to your point, yes, we have 7500 members, about 10,000 meters. So, obviously well outgrown the previous footprint of the electric cooperative. And really, it's just been about fulfilling needs. Thankfully, our board was open to the idea when we first started getting demand from outside of our service territory. And frankly, we got into this just to serve member need that they said, "Hey, we've been in some other businesses, we did surveys every other year to see what issues were rising to the top." And broadband continued to be one back in 2010 and decided to apply for some ARRA grants, which got us started.

Jase: Nice.

Darren: And so...

Jase: ARRA.

Darren: Just progressed from there. And that was the reinvestment act, American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, for those that were around at that time. And really, we've just... It grew out of need. And then, like I said, our board was open enough and proactive enough to allow us to go after some community interests that popped up and some commercial interests that popped up within the communities around us. And so, even while we serve a very... Two and a half meters per mile, basically, in our electric footprint...

Jase: Whoo.

Darren: We run parallel to a decent number of communities. And we were able to fulfill that interest, looked at this more of a regional growth rather than just an electric cooperative growth. And frankly, somewhat by necessity too, as we got into this, we started seeing that this was an opportunity not just to fulfill a need in the area, but to bring much needed cash into a co-op that, again, at two and a half meters per mile, that's not a good economic outlook long-term. And costs go up. We were the highest cost electric co-op rate-wise in the state at the time. And so, again, it's just been a win-win situation, which really drove our ongoing, this ongoing roadmap we've had of looking at federal funding opportunities along with community builds.

Jase: So you've proven, Darren, beyond any shadow of doubt, as a rural cooperative, that when you got started, you didn't have anything involving internet. I think y'all... You told me that you're offering some satellite TV at the time, but it wasn't data. You created from scratch a pretty stunningly impressive broadband provider inside of an REC, and you've done it in a way that's like, it's also helped your economics and it's helped you just to strengthen the underlying electric co-op business in ways that probably you didn't think about when you first got started with those federal programs like the ARRA grants. That's really badass, man. Congrats to you and the United crew for that.

Darren: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I'd like to say there was a vision of that. I think it's like how the network is today, though. I don't think we can... We obviously didn't foresee there would be that kind of demand when we started, that we were just trying to fulfill member needs and I don't think we can sit here today necessarily know what the next five to 10 years brings for these networks. But we know they have to be there or areas like ours don't continue to compete.

Jase: There's so much to cover, Darren, that, let's jump in for this call into BEAD, then if folks have follow-up questions around any of the broader topics of RECs becoming ISPs, I think it might make sense for you to come back and do another session, another webinar with The Broadband Community, 'cause there's just a wealth of knowledge at this point of how to get these things going, and also why. Getting members services, that's absolutely key. And a thing that you helped me understand last year, Darren, that, definitely is, according to my Apple Watch, caused a bunch of heart-fluctuating things. You told me, as one of the greatest REC ISPs in the land, that you were looking at the BEAD Act and America's largest ever, possibly last major broadband investment is something that you might not even go for, because it's so huge and there's so many bells and whistles, there's so many moving parts. And it's like, that was a startling thought, to think that, the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act explicitly names cooperatives as eligible. These things are really important to make sure that folks like you are gonna go for it. And to hear that you maybe weren't going to go for it.

Jase: I know that... I think that your thinking has changed a lot, we can talk that through, but you helped me understand that in a way that really inspired this insistence on trying to get, these types of things to the surface for folks that are, maybe they're REC, maybe you're a telco, maybe you're a communication district, but things that you should definitely know about when it comes to the BEAD Act. So, thanks for that. As you know, the year of 2024, it's the year of BEAD, it's the big... All the folks have been working in their tails off for years to get the BEADs together, to make sure that it's going to the highest and best use, which in a lot of places could be going into rural cooperatives where they want to go for their share of BEAD or be a part of a team that goes for their share of BEAD. There's been many years of hard work in the making, this is it. And there's an upcoming showdown that's gonna take place in the states. But just as a reminder, folks that are in the cooperative business, if you're looking at BEAD and you're on the fence about it, this talk is for you, and Darren is definitely like a massive resource that can help walk this stuff through.

Jase: But, a couple of the problems that you helped us to understand, Darren, on this is that there's so many stakeholders that are involved in the BEAD process behind the scenes that are driving these things, and it results in a lot of work that you have to do, as... And prior grant programs that you've gone for as a cooperative, that you've had to go and do a bunch of things that are not necessarily core to your business in order to get your share of resources from those prior programs, and that's certainly something that's happening inside of BEAD for RECs. But the message is, first and foremost, if you are an REC and you're thinking about it, but you say, "Well, we don't think we're gonna do it after all," the message is very clear though, that if you don't apply, someone else is going to. And they might not have your member's best interest in mind. So, it's definitely a thought to do as much as you can to look at this program as an opportunity. Folks on the call, this is about these hidden truths.

Jase: The first truth to think about inside a BEAD, and, Darren, this is one that we've helped to really understand, is you as a cooperative having already built decades worth of existing infrastructure for delivering electricity into homes or delivering telephone service into homes, have a built-in gold mine when it comes to the piece of the puzzle of matching funds. And the key to look for there, as we talked about, Darren, with the folks in San Antonio, is that in-kind contributions that weren't funded by other federal broadband grant programs, which is the vast majority of your existing physical plant if you're a cooperative, is eligible as an in-kind contribution that you can stay as part of the application process. That's including the right of way, the existing plant, the make-ready value equivalent. You have those things in a way that you can put them into your BEAD application. And it's important... Darren, you've done a lot of the ReConnect Program too. You've done your share of those programs? 

Darren: Actually, our first one, that ARRA fund I mentioned, was USDA-managed, but very similar. Yeah. So that's really where we got our first taste. We haven't done ReConnect since, but that was our experience with USDA.

Jase: Got you, got you, got you. But then you've taken out loans in the past in some programs, and other RECs that are on the fence about taking out loans, understandably, because it's pledging up collateral in a way that's like you're taking on a risk. To clarify for folks that are on the call, doing so as a matching... A contribution, as an in-kind contribution and getting a private market, fair market value of your right of way and in your plants and things that you can count towards your in-kind contribution, that's not the same as collateral, that's just going and getting the fair market value and getting it in a spot that you can list it as an application.

Darren: Well, and this is a big one, I think, Jase, speaking to this, you mentioned it before, when we got into the first round of this back in 2010 with ARRA, we did not know what we were doing. It is intimidating. You're going into a program that you don't know necessarily yet all the rules, which was very similar to back at that time, which was the same thing. Even going into this, not knowing that that number one piece was even an option from an in-kind contribution, those are the type of things that you really need the partnerships for to take advantage of those assets, 'cause it is a huge advantage. Not just it's a huge advantage for the construction costs and the total cost of auto per mile passing, you have all those things, but then just understanding how to work the program to your advantage.

Jase: Exactly, Darren. And the folks at NTIA, they've been working their tails off to get as much of the guidance in place as possible. And like you said, there's still further guidance. We do know that it's gonna be very tough to put into that bucket of in-kind contribution the things that are funded by other federal programs. So, if you've taken on prior grants and you've built up some existing information infrastructure, those things might not count more guidance coming. But the things that you've built in decades prior that are the heavy lifting of say, poles that reach into the two and a half homes per mile, and then the line that goes into the home from there, those types of things are definitely things that an entity that was starting from scratch, if they were to go after those things, especially in areas where there's very high cost, those are things that they would need to go and replicate. And so, there's a replication value, a replacement value.

Jase: And there are methodologies. We've posted in the community in the past with white papers outlining valuation methodologies for these types of things. There are entire firms that can help you with these types of things. There are definitely some really amazing broadband grant consultants that can help you get into the weeds, and once that guidance comes down. But it is already crystal clear the way it works, that if you're sitting in an REC and you've built eight or nine decades worth of physical plant in order to deliver critical services to members, that you are definitely sitting on something that can be of use to you in your application process. All right. The second one, Darren, this is interesting. And we talked a little about this. We had conversations with several folks that are in this camp of being a rural electric cooperative, and being interested in doing something for members that could involve bringing the revolutionary BEAD programs resources into their wheelhouse, but they don't want to be an ISP. Have you met any RECs like that, that...

Darren: For sure. Yeah, there's always those. I think, like I said, it's just, when you go into this, it's a lot of new things. You have the cost, I think, but I think even more so than the cost, a lot of it's just understanding that line of business, feeling comfortable having the people to do it. Because the folks that were here before were already busy. So, it's bringing on new employees, it's doing those type of things potentially. I think more than... It's just another piece of the unknown, right? So, yeah, I think that... And back when we started this in 2010, there weren't really any examples in the co-op world. Now there are plenty of examples in the electric co-op world of people that have been successful. Obviously there's other partnership opportunities out there, but, yeah, I think we're in a different place today than we were a little over a decade ago.

Jase: Yeah, spot on, Darren. And, you've always talked about how helpful the NRTC is, as an entity, of helping cooperatives like RECs and telcos get into delivering other types of critical services to members and they produce really important research of surveying among members. And this one from a year ago is very striking, is, reasons why cooperatives broadly are concerned about delivering internet service. And top of the list, for example, is that reporting and compliance requirements and all the things that go into being a provider. It's interesting to think that you, Darren, you just said, "We gotta get this done 'cause no one else is gonna do it, so we're just gonna build an ISP for others though involved in that process." What's really interesting about the way NCIA has crafted this, the beautiful architecture at BEAD, even though it is complicated, it's like the complexity inside of it is for a purpose and it's to be very expressive and to allow for lots of interesting models that make sense for different states. And different states will approach these differently, but by and large, partnerships are enabled and encouraged. So if you're an REC that's on the fence about it, one thing that you could do is go and team up with a provider, and go and take on the share, and use that in a way that can generate even assets for your REC and the cashflow for your REC without you becoming the ISP.

Jase: So, it's just a fascinating set of options on the table that maybe don't occur to folks. RECs that are on the call, think about that, and go and definitely study, talk to your broadband grant consultants, ask the NTIA lots of questions. But it's like, if you just read the BEAD NOFO and further guidance that they've issued since then, and you go back to the mother act, the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act, it's very clear, the partnership model is something that's gonna be very hard for a state to say, "We're not gonna allow partnerships, we're only gonna do pure play, like providers show up and be eligible." It would be very difficult for them to actually pull that off. It's just fascinating to think that maybe some of these RECs and telcos that are on the fence might partner up with some really great local ISPs that can help them to get the job done, and then they can have that relationship going on after BEAD gets underway. But this piece, Darren, is another... The final truth. This is what you really helped us understand, Darren, is that the amount of work that you all do just to stay compliant. How many programs have you done to this point, different, between RDOF and all that? 

Darren: Five. Yeah.

Jase: And there's just... With every one of them, there's a lot of work, right, there's a lot of, like if you get the award, you go get the job done as your primary set of jobs, but you also have lots of understandable reporting and compliance paperwork and filings that you have to do and stuff like that, and it's certainly something that you helped us understand about. BEAD looks like it's order of magnitude harder and more complex than those prior programs. So, certainly people are... If reporting and compliance was already the top concern before BEAD really became BEAD, and that's why people were on the fence about being broadband providers. We can imagine that a lot of RECs have that concern. Can you talk about this a little bit, Darren, about that, how that impacts your thinking and how you think about the overall amount of work that you have to do just to keep up with it? 

Darren: Yeah, absolutely. And that's the conversation you and I had over a year ago now. But it's... We saw it firsthand. And like I said, I think our, that first application we did again through the ARRA program was the most difficult, the most ongoing strenuous for reporting, that sort of thing, and maintaining that. And so obviously that's been, as we've done different things through the FCC, through the state programs for different, other programs that we've been able to capitalize on over the last few years, it's, this one again, looks somewhat to me like ARRA. It looks like there's more ongoing reporting, there's more upfront reporting, frankly, and more ongoing. And so, that is somewhat of a barrier for folks to have that concern. And I think, just some of the things that we've already touched on, but understanding not just the federal program, but there's also the state-level component of it as well. 'Cause not every state, not every rule is gonna be the same state to state, 'cause the state broadband office is gonna have some impact on how things are done. And so, it's even maybe a little bit more complicated than dealing with just a single federal agency that we've done in the past.

Darren: So, again, I think that even draws more to the need of having automated compliance that you don't have to worry about. I think some of the announcements, I watched your show with Michael Weening last week, and I think having that ability to even tie this in to your existing network, to be able to utilize those resources and meet the state requirements, just having those things tied together is so much further and so much more advanced than where we were back in 2010 when we started looking at these things. I think it's complex, no doubt about it. To your point, I think as we get more clarity, especially through the state and depending on the state that you're operating in, I think I see this being more and more doable all the time. And then, like I said... But obviously this is a huge component to it. And for any of us that don't have a staff of attorneys like some of the larger Tier 1's that are out there, we have to make this work with limited staff and things like that. This really simplifies and, I think, improves our opportunity to be successful.

Jase: Well said, Darren. It's important to hear that point, that you as somebody that's connected tens of thousands of families in very high-cost areas through prior programs and even in some cases, figuring out your own funding outside of federal grants and loans, to hear that you would otherwise be on the fence about applying if it weren't for a platform that can help to automate the reporting and compliance post-award, assuming that you get the awards, that you wouldn't necessarily go for BEAD in the first place is, it's something that I think we all need to internalize. 'Cause I know that the people that work their tails off to get BEAD to be a successful program from the United States to the people that need broadband services, to hear that... The people that are potentially some of the best at getting the job done in areas where it's needed the absolute most, what are there? 

Jase: 860 rural cooperatives, for example, and you serve 30 million plus homes. And those highly correlate with the heavy concentrations of BEAD-unserved, underserved areas, it's important that this is internalized. And that folks that are on the fence about going for this program, because of that complexity, should know that even if you get it, to not necessarily have to hire a post-award reporting and compliance army. Okay. So, this is good to know. And, Darren, thank you for that. We have some really awesome questions that are rolling through. Yeah. So I wanna cut over real fast and just make sure... Before we do that, Darren, do you have anything else before we jump into the questions from the community? 

Darren: Yeah. I was just gonna add one more component to the stats you were throwing out on co-ops. Add 93% of persistent poverty counties as well. Obviously that somewhat matches up to the need for...

Jase: Yeah, 93% of persistent poverty counties.

Darren: There's a reason these areas aren't served now, and I know it's... And it's hard, but that's...

Jase: It is hard.

Darren: A huge component of, I think, what the [0:29:42.9] ____ co-ops can provide.

Jase: Co-ops have been phenomenal stewards of public resources for nine decades now, of getting services to families in those exact areas. It's important that we all work together to make sure that as many of them as possible know the program. There's a lot of intricacy to BEAD, but it's for a purpose. It's very thoughtful. If you really take the time to digest it and look at it, it's interesting, and hopefully those hidden truths help. Thank you, Darren, for that last fact. 93% of the counties, this is definitely something where folks that have a stake in that program, let's do everything we can to make sure cooperatives like Darren's or, when those states start to open their applicant portals, I think that probably starts with Louisiana, maybe not that long from now, let's make sure as many of those cooperatives are empowered to go for their share of the resources. They're gonna be competing with some amazing providers, they're gonna be competing with all new types of proposal, and obviously that's better for everybody. They're not gonna win everywhere, but where they do choose to apply, they could be very good at what they do if they apply.

Jase: Quick question from Carol Mattey, who's, pardon my language, a total badass. Folks that are in the community that don't know Carol yet, go back and listen to Carol's recent Ask Me Anything with the community tool, policy luminary, did some great things at FCC, NTIA. She asks a question: "Isn't one reason why a co-op would not be planning on applying for BEAD is if its network deployment is complete or already complete? If a co-op through ARRA or other programs has fully deployed a network and is already offering broadband there, those areas won't be eligible for BEAD." Very true. "In that situation, the REC then would only be evaluating whether to pursue funding for projects outside of its own electric territory." Which is like both a question and a really interesting insight into what RECs could do, what you've done. Darren, can you talk to this one a little bit? 

Darren: Absolutely. That's United's, well-described right there. Yeah, because we've fortunately been successful through multiple programs to continue to push the network further out and into our membership. But, yeah, so that's why, as Jase said, I told him when we talked about this, that's why we were a little bit on the fence. Now, if I were sitting there at the same place we were in 2010, here in 2024, it would be a totally different issue because we... Knowing that you have the opportunity to go in and serve markets that really require some type of additional funding to get those done, this is gonna be probably, as we've all talked about, probably the last big chance to do that.

Darren: I think each cooperative's different in that, and Carol's absolutely right, that if you've already built most if not all of your electric membership, then the next step is, do we inch this out into other, with other co-ops? We've done some partnerships with other co-ops even, and just serving in their territory around us. But those are the questions you have to ask as you look forward to this. And again, back to the potential of those partnerships where maybe one co-op can, again, strengthen their system, get fiber on their poles to... I think we all know that the future of electricity requires that ability as well. So, it might be that they wanna partner with somebody else to provide this service. So yes, I think there's also opportunities there.

Jase: There you go. Yeah. Well said, Darren. I love the question and the thought because it's a reminder to cooperatives that you have your member base and then you have the communities around your member base. And you have lots of proof from folks like Darren and the United Fiber team that you can offer things. There are all kinds of interesting opportunities on the table that maybe those folks aren't considering. Okay. Next question. From Dr. Ron Suarez, which is... This is really cool. I have the same damn question, now that you mention it. "Is there an association of broadband cooperatives? And if so, where would one find a directory of such cooperatives?" Does anybody in the community know of such an association of broadband co-ops? Have y'all co-op'ed to a co-op? Is that like a co-op square? What...

Darren: Yeah. Yeah, we're starting to... This is big math. No, we're... We do somewhat... Well, I'll say this on the telephone co-op side, there's the NTCA, which has worked on the telephone side, for...

Jase: "NTCA." What's with these alphabet stews? Like...

Darren: Oh, I know. And you threw out... NRTC has helped some electric co-ops. There's other... There is no formal, what I would say, for electric cooperatives, no formal organization other than NRECA, National Rural Electric Association, has done some work recently, trying to provide a little bit more structure to that. But it is not a formal structure that everybody's participating.

Jase: Yeah. The broadband tier.

Darren: Correct.

Jase: Yeah. And that would be specific to RECs, correct? 

Darren: Right. Right.

Jase: Or is that open to... Okay. And then there's Utility Technology Council, which is really a fascinating entity.

Darren: Correct.

Jase: But is there a gap? Is Dr. Suarez... Has Dr. Suarez uncovered something that's like, there actually needs to be something like that? 

Darren: Yes.

Jase: Yeah. 'Cause it could be useful. It could be like, look, we're all in this together. These co-ops have decades of delivering critical services to families, but we need some extra focus support to...

Darren: On that point, Jase, I think the structure's morphing much like it has at the state level, where most states have their own electric association, their statewide association, then they have the national association. That's what's starting to happen now, that as people, as folks like OzarksGo, as OEC, Arkansas is a great example that they've formed a golden or... I'm gonna say that wrong. But they formed their own state network for the co-ops that are participating in the state 'cause they have a high percentage of the co-ops participating. So I think as more come on board, as more participate, I think it's gonna morph from that state and regional level, hopefully into a national level.

Jase: There you go. There's just something striking about the idea, the concept of it. It's like, yeah, that fits a need that's not there yet. So, let's keep thinking that one through. Scott Woods, President of Public-Private Partnerships at Ready and, all-around generally mediocre golfer [laughter] asks Darren: "Outside of agriculture, what is and are the best, biggest and drivers for rural broadband expansion? What should we know that we don't?" Are you seeing any cool use cases from the United Fiber's decade plus of getting folks... If you can get fiber to the farm, okay, you can get fiber to the factory, you can do all those things. Can you tell us anything that you've been seeing that's really interesting use cases that you see as drivers? 

Darren: And this is gonna sound a little general, but it's really just given the ability to people to do what they wanna do and stay in rural America. We're trying to foster this from basically the home level, because we have so many more people working from home that have had to go, potentially have had to move to Kansas City or move somewhere else in the past to have either that opportunity, that access, whatever that was. And so, now we have those people that can, they can live in their home, they can work from home, they can educate in their home, they can do, again, whatever it is they choose to do, however they choose to live. It's just another piece of infrastructure that we have to have in place to allow people to live in Northwest Missouri. 'Cause we've seen that, that, farms are getting bigger, more people are moving away. And so whether that's, again, for your small community to make sure that school has everything they need, whether that's your factory to make sure that they can keep competent, skilled workers and operate effectively and efficiently, there's just...

Darren: It's anything you would need anywhere else, and it's just making sure that the most rural areas of Missouri or anywhere else in the country have that same opportunity. So that's really, to Scott's point, yes, we see this as we wanna make... We wanna give every opportunity in the home, in the business, in the community. That's why some of the services we're offering with Wi-Fi and different things we think are so critical to give... Like you said, Jase, you talked about this at the very start, that you might have some services available in Northwest Missouri that you don't have in areas of California where, that are supposedly to be the technology capital of the country. So, I think it's a great equalizer. It's...

Jase: A great equalizer.

Darren: It gives us the opportunity to do anything that you can do in this...

Jase: Oh, man. I love that answer. You throw it back as it's not about the applications, it's about the people. And it's like, there's a general understanding of rural America that looks something like tractors and big trucks. And I always talk about, Maryville is like farms, factories, and football, but it's actually some really amazing people that work their tails off to do things. And you're saying that they can choose to live where they wanna live. And it's like, somebody wants to live in the lifestyle of small town, maybe they're farming, maybe they're just in a little town in a rural context, they can do that, and then they can participate in the global economy as a result of having that advanced connectivity into the home, into the workplace in those rural contexts. Is that right? 

Darren: Absolutely. Yeah. And we've seen so much more. We've had letter after letter of people that say, that are like, "Hey, I don't have to drive to Kansas City or St. Joe," or wherever that is now, or, "I can do all these things from my home," obviously with COVID and all the things we went through with that. But yeah, that's really what it's all about at the end of the day.

Jase: Oh, man. COVID. You remember that time we had a global pandemic? 

Darren: Yeah. Sorry, I shouldn't have brought that up.

Jase: That was... Oh, God.

Darren: But for people... To that point, I think we think of agriculture and people driving around in their trucks and tractors, that you would be amazed to see the technology that those folks use. And we have a board of directors for our co-op that are primarily made up of farmers. And of those individuals that maybe didn't use the internet five to 10 years ago, every one of 'em relies on it heavily now. Like I said, it doesn't matter what your industry is, what do we do today that really doesn't rely on good connectivity? 

Jase: That's wonderful, Darren. We're, folks, at the 18-minute mark, so we're gonna kick things up a notch here. I'm gonna crack open a Liquid Death Armless Palmer. And folks that are interested in this absurd brand, look at the battle they got into with the guy, Arnold Palmer, over the drink that bears his name. But folks on the call, you do you. I'm gonna have a nice Liquid Death Armless Palmer for the rest of the session. Questions keep rolling in and so do observations. Yee Hee says, "I love Liquid Death." That's right, Yee Hee, murder your thirst. It's like a weird... I don't know what. Something about...

Darren: Marketing genius. Marketing genius.

Jase: Yeah, it really is. Who else is asking stuff on this thing? Yeah, folks, yeah, Desmond... Desmond, he's an amazing human. He says, "Are there specific reporting and compliance requirements that have been the most challenging to keep up with in previous grant programs that United Fiber has participated in?"

Darren: Yeah, that's a great question. Probably some of our more challenging, I'm saying this at the time as we were doing with our program, we did have Davis-Bacon requirements on our labor and trying to keep track of that through the process, where, as a crew of folks crossed from one county into another with different rates...

Jase: Ooh.

Darren: And sometimes substantially different rates that, the crews might wanna flock toward one county versus another. Just little things that you don't necessarily think of until you're in the middle of it. We've been pretty fortunate, to me, with some of the FCC programs with CAF and RDOF and those things, that we have the flexibility somewhat on how to build it, other than our initial entries of our technology requirements. But then, that proof of providing the level of service that you say you're gonna provide, which is great. Those are the things that jump out to me right offhand, but I would say probably the most challenging thing for us through that very initial one was the Davis-Bacon compliance and the reporting for a small staff. Again, we've grown over time. At that time, there was just a handful of us that were doing it. Now we've grown to 75 employees, so we're a little bit people...

Jase: Whoa.

Darren: Than we used to be, but it's still challenging for a small organization.

Jase: There's some really interesting things to think through with what you just said. But you identified Davis-Bacon and labor broadly. That's really challenging. It's easy to write a policy in DC, but when in practice, when you're talking about multiple counties in rural America, you got networks and member bases that span five, six counties in some of these places. That's gonna be a challenge, yeah, keeping track of all that.

Darren: Yeah. Even little things like community benefit programs, environmental statements and environmental compliance, those are just things that you can get through, but like I said, the more help you have, the more automated that is, it just makes everyone's life a little easier.

Jase: That's what we're up to at Ready, by the way. Shout-out to the awesome Ready team. We're building software that... The thought is that you have more important work to do than paperwork. And that if some of those things, those protections are in place for very good reasons. They're being very thoughtful and careful about things like waste, fraud, and abuse. But the old ways of somebody in the team compiling a CSV every couple of months and sending that in arrears as to progress being made, that's being replaced with the source of truth, the equipment itself, as you turn up equipment, that could be beamed back to the broadband office and back to the NTIA, and back to everybody that needs to be a stakeholder in that journey, that there is in fact service available, even the pricing, to make sure that the pricing requirements are in place for states that are looking at that. A lot of those things that were manual effort in the past can and should, because you're very busy, be automated. Yeah. Cool question.

Jase: What else? We're having a... No one here, as far as I know, works for or has any kind of endorsement, sponsorship with the Liquid Death company, but I hope they get a small boost in sales as a result of the enthusiasm of The Broadband Community for their products. Chris Bailey asks, "How are you addressing connecting broadband to MDUs?" And I'd start with, how many MDUs in rural contexts? They're there, but they're less. Or do you have a lot of MDU subscribers there in United Fiber? 

Darren: We do, as we built out into, as we built into the communities that are around us, the larger communities where...

Jase: There you go.

Darren: We have over 5000 units that we serve right now, and that's growing rapidly. I think I...

Jase: Wow.

Darren: I looked at the last report, we have about 30 different units under either construction or under permitting right now. This has been a huge growth piece. And I think what you'll find in rural America, Jase, you're familiar with this, this is where I'm from, it's like, you don't find a lot of 100 complex-type units. It's a lot of fourplexes, eightplexes...

Jase: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Darren: Houses that have been turned into... But yes, we've been able to do that. And frankly, we've always run that off of just direct fiber in the past. But as we've gotten into bigger units into some areas that will not allow you to run fiber in, we've utilized some technology to operate over existing Cat 3 or Cat 5 wire, utilizing existing copper and we've been able to deliver gigabit speeds, utilizing some of those technologies recently. So yeah, it's a great market, great opportunity on a per passing cost. That's been something that we've really developed more over the last couple of years.

Jase: So fiber to the building and then within the building, if it's bigger and legacy...

Darren: Right.

Jase: There might be some really interesting things that you do to make the existing cabling work.

Darren: Correct.

Jase: And at that distance, that's pretty awesome. Fiber to that is probably night and day compared to what they had in the past. So, that's really...

Darren: Yeah. We've tried to run fiber in the past wherever we can, but then there's just times it's just not feasible and so we've utilized existing copper. And we've learned a lot. Again, like everything else, it's not easy off the start, but now that we've gotten further into it, we're really getting better and hitting our pace there.

Jase: Sweet. Let's do it. I think that might be it, y'all. Do the other folks have questions? People raise their hand? I don't know if that's even possible. I've raised my hand. I got a question for you, Darren, while others are weighing in. Are you going to apply for BEAD? And if so, how? 

Darren: Well, that's a great question. We are looking at opportunities, from Carol's point earlier, nearly all of our members are served, we're wrapping up just a couple of areas right now, but that part has been taken care of. So we're looking at other opportunities. And I know our state challenge process just opened up. So we're going through that process right now, and to be determined. So we're looking... Again, it'll be outside of our existing footprint, but we are looking for opportunities.

Jase: Okay. Thank you, Darren. Yeah, to Carol's point, you've already done the work that is basically no need for BEAD. Everywhere that United currently exists, that is a thoroughly solved problem.

Darren: Right.

Jase: I will lower my hand. Cool. Oh, sweet. What's this? Dr. Ron Suarez says... It's a link, to a thing. Check out what Dr. Suarez posts, "Advantages of expanding digital equity & IoT in multiple dwelling." Oh, sweet. Yeah. There you go. Oh, those are some of the great reasons why you should bring the advanced stuff into MDUs and... Cool. Well, y'all... Oh. Laura asks... Laura, sorry, asks: "Are you planning on submitting BEAD challenges?" Are you gonna go and step... Wait. I'm sure somebody up there is going to, but would it be United Fiber or maybe like some...

Darren: Well, we have our... We'll be looking at all of our areas that we've built, areas that we still have pending. We still have a little bit of pending RDOF work to do, just things like that, that we'll be about... Yeah, we'll be closely evaluating the maps to make sure they're accurate. And that's at the request of the state. Obviously everybody's, they want all providers participating in that process.

Jase: Yeah. Sweet. Yeah. Thanks, Darren. Well, everybody, it's been great hanging out. Darren, thank you so much for making time. We know you're very busy. I hope you get your own version of your beverage of choice, and let's get you back onto another, a follow-up webinar AMA for folks that are curious about the specifics of building an ISP inside of a cooperative like you've done. And thanks for all you're doing to get folks connected out in rural America.

Darren: No, we appreciate it, Jase, and hope... I may not be having an Armless Palmer, we'll be having something later but I... But we do have, I think, in the cooperative space, and you threw some really good providers out there, there's well over 200 that are in the cooperative world that are doing some form of this type of business, and all are very open and helpful. So if there's folks out there that are looking, "How can we do this?" and there's somebody that matches up with them closely, reach out because that's just somewhat the cooperative... Another cooperative trade is helping others in the business.

Jase: It is so beautiful. Y'all are out there doing that stuff, getting families the services they need. You can't imagine a better steward of the resources of the public than co-ops like RECs, like United Fiber, like folks that have gone in to get the job done in decades prior for other types of utility service. It's really cool that you're doing that. Thanks for offering to help them. And let's get you back onto another one of them and talk to the folks at NRECA, the folks at NRTC, and all the other ABC 123s come together and figure this out, 'cause BEAD happens once and it's really frankly happening now. So, I appreciate you, Darren. I hope you have a wonderful Friday. Folks in the community, if you haven't yet, go check out the next upcoming events, broadband.io, some really amazing folks coming up. We got Brian Mitchell, State Director of Nevada coming up and a ton of other great folks that are coming on to the community over the next few weeks. Y'all have a wonderful rest of your Friday, okay? Adios